What If Anxiety Is A Spiritual Battle?

Russ Ewell
What if anxiety isn’t just an emotional struggle, but a spiritual one? What if fear is the greatest obstacle to experiencing God’s power?

Not that long ago, I did a talk called See What God Can Do. I think God comes up in this question of—what if anxiety isn’t just an emotional struggle, but a spiritual one? What if fear is the greatest obstacle to experiencing God’s power?

I want to bring in my guests who’ve been joining me for a few podcasts to really talk about spirituality, anxiety, stress, and fear. I want to bring them in to just get us started on this question. Stone Eleazer, Ray Kim—welcome. Stone, we’ll let you get us started, and then we’ll jump into our conversation.

Stone Eleazer
Yeah, I think that’s a great conversation, a great topic. I’ve learned over time—my thought life does not lead me spiritually. My thought life doesn’t lead me toward spirituality. My thought life usually leads me toward things like anxiety and fear. I’ve learned I can’t always trust my thoughts, and that they don’t always have my best interest in mind.

We’re trying to be a biblical church. I know the Bible is truth—not necessarily the thoughts running through my head. So the more I can get the Bible in my mind and focus on that, the better I do. That’s the big thing I’ve learned—my thought life doesn’t always lead me toward spirituality.

Ray Kim
Well, I think for me, that part really resonated. Anxiety is actually a spiritual issue for me. A lot of it has to do not just with my circumstances, but with needing to change how I view and understand who God is.

I get anxious because I think I have to come through—when my dad was expecting me to get great grades, when my wife asks me not to forget things on the way home—I get anxious because I’m so wrapped up in thinking, I have to deliver. But then I completely forget about God.

The Bible is so clear about how much God is a refuge. He’s there. He’s for me. He’s intimate. Psalm 34 in The Message talks about how God meets us more than halfway when we’re overwhelmed with anxious fears. I find myself realizing my view of God often isn’t spiritual or biblical—I’m living like there is no God. I’m operating with a warped view of Him based on my upbringing or demanding circumstances. That’s a big issue for me.

Russ Ewell
Have you guys ever had a moment—I know I have—where you were treating your life like it was only an emotional struggle, and forgot it was actually a spiritual one?

Ray Kim
Oh yeah. Even recently, I wasn’t getting along with someone. There were criticisms, some back-and-forth. I realized it wasn’t really about me—it had to do with forces of darkness, with discouragement, with that person’s stress and anxiety that they weren’t handling spiritually. We became each other’s targets instead of realizing—wait, there’s a deeper issue here.

We’re often unaware of our own motivations, our own spiritual condition, our fears and insecurities—because we haven’t taken them to God or to the Bible to help us reframe the situation the way the bible calls me to think..

Russ Ewell
So what you’re saying, Ray, is that sometimes we’re in relational or life struggles, and we treat them as emotional only. And when we do that, they never really get resolved—because we don’t look under the hood.

I remember I had a Pontiac something during my senior year of high school. In Michigan, you’re supposed to be able to fix your own car. The carburetor had problems, and the car kept breaking down.

So I asked people what to do, and they told me to go to a junkyard to get a replacement. I couldn’t find the exact carburetor, but I found a similar one, brought it home, and popped the hood. I took the old one out, replaced it with the new one—but it still didn’t work. I had to bend a piece of metal to get it to fit. This was back before cars were computerized, when the average Joe could jump in there. But there was no YouTube! So I had to talk to someone to learn how to do it. Once I finally got under the hood and replaced the carburetor—guess what? The car worked great.

If I’d just gotten mad and kicked the car because it wouldn’t start, and complained to my parents, I’d be hoping the car would fix itself.

A lot of times with emotions—and I’m a very emotional person—my weakness, and sometimes sin, is emotionalism. That’s when I stop exercising self-control, stop relying on the Holy Spirit, and just let my emotions control the day.

So I hear you, Ray—when we’re dealing with stuff with our parents, our kids, our friends—we can’t be superficial by only addressing the emotional issues. We have to look underneath and ask, “What are the spiritual issues going on here?” Because only then can we see what God can do.

2 Corinthians 12:8-9 says:

“Three different times I begged the Lord to take it away. Each time He said, ‘My grace is all you need. My power works best in weakness.’ So now I am glad to boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ can work through me.”

Growing up—and this is nobody’s fault but mine—my response to adversity was to hide my weakness. I was prideful. I boasted all the time. Internally, I was insecure.

When I became a Christian, one of the hardest things for me was accepting that I had weaknesses, and I needed to talk about them. Only when I did could God’s power really start working in my life. God doesn’t remove weakness—He turns it into strength. That’s what I believe.

In Matthew 13:22:

“…and the one on whom seed was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the worries and distractions of the world and the deceitfulness, the superficial pleasures and delight of riches choke the word, and it yields no fruit.”

The Bible says anxiety, stress, and fear create the worries and distractions. Before we know it, all of God’s power gets choked off in our lives because we’re letting anxiety, stress, and fear control us.

That’s what I think spiritual weakness is. Yes, sin is a part of it—but spiritual weakness is when we’re consumed by anxiety, stress, and fear. When we treat everything like it’s just emotional. When we don’t pop the hood on the Pontiac and say, “Yep, it’s a carburetor problem.”

In Ezekiel 11, 18, and 36, the Bible talks about how God turns hearts of stone into hearts of soft flesh. I think sometimes we choke off our own faith because we’re reacting to the anxiety and fear in our lives.

I told some friends recently—one of the challenges we face is that our whole life becomes about avoiding anxiety, avoiding stress, and avoiding fear. But here’s the truth: you’re never going to avoid them. They’re part of the human condition. What we can do is lean into God, and let Him transform us through the anxiety, stress, and fear.

That’s how we develop a more sensitive conscience, deeper conviction, and stronger character. And when you have those, you become a more confident person. That’s how God turns weakness into strength.

But you guys can jump in with thoughts. After that, I want us to really break down what anxiety is and how to address it. Then we’ll answer a few questions people have sent in and wrap up the podcast.

Ray Kim
Yeah, I was just thinking about a conversation I had a couple days ago. I realized this person I was trying to help was putting a lot of his hope in his relationship working out—him and his wife getting along—and he was putting hope in the wrong things. He just wanted to feel better emotionally, and that wasn’t happening. We had to start shifting toward putting his hope in God.

Psalm 42:11 in The Voice says that despite all our emotions, we can still hope in God. He’s the one who takes care of things. That really came to mind. Sometimes I’m not even aware how unspiritual I’m being, because my hope is in things going right, in people listening to me. But the real question is—what is God doing? Where is He leading me? What can I learn from this process? That learning helps me calm down and get my bearings again.

Russ Ewell
What was that scripture again? Can you read it?

Ray Kim
Yeah—Psalm 42:11 in The Voice:

“Why am I so overwrought? Why am I so disturbed? Why can’t I just hope in God? Despite all my emotions, I will believe and praise the one who saves me, my God.”

Russ Ewell
Wow. When it says “despite all my emotions,” what do you think about that?

Ray Kim
I think emotions can feel so real. They seem true. They seem like reality. But the Bible’s saying—even despite my emotions, I need to believe and praise God. What I feel isn’t necessarily what’s true or right. Just because I feel something doesn’t mean that’s how God sees it.

Russ Ewell
What would you say, Ray, to listeners who are wondering, “How do I feel all these emotions but not believe them?” Because I know for me, that’s really hard.

Ray Kim
Yeah, that’s a big one. I think I always have to ask, What’s the motive behind my emotions? That helps me. Is it self-protection? Selfish ambition? Or is it genuine concern? I also try to get to the facts—because facts reveal truth and help me see what’s underneath the emotion.

Russ Ewell
Yeah. So you’re saying, when I’m in my emotions—like when my son got his wisdom teeth out and I fainted—you’d say, “Hey, your emotions got the best of you because you didn’t look at the facts.”

The fact is, he would’ve been okay even if he had to go to the hospital. But I reacted to the circumstance, so my emotions crushed me. That word you used—facts—we’ve got to be willing to ask, “What are the facts?”

Here’s my problem: when I’m in my emotions, I need someone else to help me, because I am so convinced.

When I was a kid—six or seven—we had chili for dinner and later that night I threw up. I became convinced the chili caused it. I didn’t eat chili again until I was 22.

Why? Because my emotions had convinced me it was the chili. I was just sick, but I made that emotional association. I remember trying it again at a restaurant in Boston and going, “This stuff is amazing!” I started eating chili three times a week.

It’s amazing how much emotions can control us.

Here’s something I wrote down for myself and want to share:
Faith is the only way we experience the power of God. But anxiety, stress, and fear steal that faith.
They keep us from living by faith, from seeing God’s possibilities, from experiencing His power.
They make us timid instead of bold, hesitant instead of decisive, shrinking back instead of advancing.
They make us focus on our limitations instead of God’s power.

So when you read Psalm 42 earlier, Ray—I think it’s saying: Despite all these emotions, I still know who to turn to.

Look at Romans 15:13:

“May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, through the experience of your faith, that by the power of the Holy Spirit, you will abound in hope and overflow with confidence in His promises.”

It’s so important that we believe in the power of God. Because when I don’t, I’m just trying to live the Christian life in my own strength.

And when I do that, I feel more anxious, more stressed, more fearful, more worried, more hyper-aware, more hypersensitive—because I’ve stopped being spiritual. I’ve become completely humanistic, focused only on what I can accomplish.

I’ve talked about this before, but as an adult child of alcoholics, one of my reactions is control. Control becomes my god. I feel safe when I’m in control—and I completely forget about God.

So Stone, I think now’s a good time to help people really understand anxiety, stress, and fear—because they can take over. But when you’re working with people, is there something you do or try to help them with to get them to not focus so much on their emotions—to not shift into letting anxiety, stress, and fear dominate them—and instead kind of take a look at the facts? Maybe it’s something you’ve learned in parenting. I think you’re really good at this. You’ve been good at it for me, telling me, “Russ, what you’re worried about right there isn’t even true.” You’ve had to do that for me. Maybe you can give people some tips or thoughts on that.

Stone Eleazer:
Yeah, I think what you said was really good. One thing you do—something I’ve learned is really critical—is you talk. When I went through the teen years, I came to believe in Luke 6:45, how the heart stores things up—stores up good, stores up evil—and out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks.

I know I go to godlessness very easily because I get wrapped up in my emotions. Then God gets driven out of my mind and heart because my emotions take over. Godlessness always makes me more fearful and anxious. It’s just a challenge that way.

I’ve found that when we have relationships and we’re talking, what’s in our heart comes out in those conversations. That’s when we start to get clarity, and God can clear out our hearts so we can actually let Him in.

But I think the person who gets anxious and emotional and keeps it in—doesn’t talk, doesn’t have the relationships, isn’t in a church culture or environment where we talk and want to know what people think and feel—not judgmentally, but helpfully… When they talk, we can help them separate what’s real from what’s emotion. That’s been one of the greatest gifts, I think.

I don’t learn to rely on God very easily. But when we’re in conversation and people point things out, I see things much more clearly. That’s because I’m talking.

Russ Ewell:
Yeah. What you’re talking about here is really important.

Sometimes—and again, there may be people listening who don’t believe in God, and that’s totally great. We’re happy to have you. You might be an atheist, or maybe you’re an agnostic like I was growing up—not sure what you believe. And so when we speak, we don’t want to leave you out of the conversation. We know you’re listening, and we’re glad you’re here.

When we talk about cultures of churches or small groups, you can think of your friends. Maybe none of your friends believe in God, but you can still practice what you’re saying, Stone—that talking.

I’ve noticed that when we don’t talk in our relationships, we put more emphasis on the sermon by the minister. We also expect the minister to solve all the problems and provide all the answers. So you’ve given me an insight—you’ve opened my eyes—that we need to be talking to people more about having spiritual conversations, especially spiritual conversations about anxiety, stress, and fear.

I know for me, earlier this year I started acknowledging my anxiety more. I’m one of those people who doesn’t always show anxiety on the outside. So I have to admit it and talk about it. What I ended up doing—you guys saw this—I put together some “stairs.” And on those stairs, I realized that the driver of all my anxiety is my fear.

I think as people who go to church and feel like we need to be strong, we’ll talk about anxiety, we’ll talk about stress, but we won’t talk about fear. And I want to break down what I think are the six sources of anxiety. I think these six sources all create fear.

Let me lay them out, and then I want you guys to comment, and we’ll move to the questions our producer Nathan sent us.

Number one is situational anxiety:
Major decisions and unexpected challenges. I think it helps to name it: “I feel anxiety because I have to make a major decision,” or “I’m dealing with something I didn’t plan.” Then we can ask: “What am I afraid of?” That helps us get to the root.

Number two is responsibility anxiety:
This is why a lot of people don’t want to be leaders. Expectations, obligations, and the fear of failure. We feel the pressure of people counting on us, and we fear not measuring up.

Number three is relationship anxiety:
This is about what others think of us. Just being able to name it helps—like we’ve talked about in this podcast series—because awareness is health. I think of my old professor Ron Kuhner, who helped me understand that. He said, “Anxiety may never be fully gone from your life, because it’s part of life. But I can help with the overdrive anxiety—the destructive kind.”

Number four is transitional anxiety:
I get this all the time—fear of change and uncertainty about the future. I’m a rigid person. I get a routine down, and if it’s disrupted, even if everything’s okay, I get irritated.

Number five is status anxiety:
Seeking validation, proving our worth, chasing approval. This one’s huge. Especially in church, where everybody wants to be good and do right—we don’t admit it when we feel invalidated or unseen. And as we get older, that can lead to a kind of midlife crisis.

Stone, I want to let you speak to this before I hit number six. But I think those of us 50 and older have to be careful. Sometimes we didn’t become the person we thought we would. Maybe we got passed over at work. Maybe our careers didn’t pan out. Then we come into church looking for that validation—“give me leadership, give me power”—because we want to feel better. That’s not always wrong, but if our motive is validation, we’re going to run into problems.

And I want to say this: the best life skills—spiritual life skills—aren’t just for teens or college students. I’m working on them right now. I’m trying to stop giving in to the hero complex from being an adult child of an alcoholic. I’m trying to learn to delegate, to relax more, to not be a perfectionist, but to be satisfied with excellence.

So Stone, can you speak to the idea that for older people, life skills can be about reinvention—not validation? When we hit a roadblock, it’s a chance to become someone new, someone God wants us to be—maybe someone we didn’t know we needed to be.

Stone Eleazer:
Yeah. Well, as someone who’s 65 and staring down the barrel of 66…

Russ Ewell:
The barrel! The barrel of 66. Wow.

Stone Eleazer:
[Laughs] It’s a heady thing. As you get older, you start facing some real things. Not just internal struggles, but physical ones. When we were younger, we didn’t think about how our bodies felt—they just worked. Now, every day there’s a new ache or something sore or off. And there are more checkups. Every checkup brings anxiety. What will they find? I recently had a biopsy on my head. It turned out fine, but now it’s something I have to think about.

You start realizing the days ahead are fewer than the days behind. You start comparing: who did I think I was going to be, and who am I now? It’s like those little videos people post—“how it started” versus “how it’s going.”

And if we’re not careful, we’ll look for value by comparing ourselves to others. But what we really need is to go after our relationship with God. That’s what brings inward peace and strength.

Two things are hard. First, learning to rely on God. Paul talks about this in 2 Corinthians 1—he says it almost killed him to learn that. It’s hard to go from self-reliance to God-reliance.

Second, coming to our senses—Luke 15, the prodigal son. That usually only happens when we hit a low point. These are the things we start to face more as we get older.

So we need to talk. We need to share those feelings of “this isn’t where I thought I’d be.” Those conversations are vulnerable, but they’re necessary. That’s how we realize we still have a whole purpose ahead of us. That’s what brings faith: knowing that no matter what your past looks like, God can change you at any time.

Russ Ewell:
That’s really good. I think about our first podcast in this series—when we talked about making God personal, powerful, and purposeful. You’re really hitting on purpose here.

As a Western-minded person, I think life is supposed to go in a straight line. Eastern-minded people don’t see it that way. For them, life moves in circles, and the journey, the discovery—that’s what matters.

Jonathan Haidt talks about this in his book The Anxious Generation. He says one of the mistakes we’re making with kids is that they’re not experiencing enough play. Older generations had more face-to-face interaction, more unstructured play. He breaks people down into defenders and discoverers—again, forgive me for not getting it exactly right.

His point is that when kids are too detached—on phones, isolated from peers—they become rigid. They become defenders instead of discoverers. But when they play, when they’re outside, when they’re free, they learn flexibility and resilience.

I think it’s the same for us. We stop seeing life as an adventure. We start evaluating it in binary terms: pain or no pain, success or failure, sin or righteousness.

But look at Jacob. His life was messy. He made mistakes. His family was dysfunctional. But at the end, he says, “God has been my shepherd all my life.” He saw life as an adventure.

So for me, instead of letting anxiety lead to spiritual exhaustion—which is the sixth kind of anxiety, where anxiety drains our faith and leaves us powerless—I want to start seeing life as an adventure. I don’t always do that. My wife will be laughing at this part. But I’m trying.

I want to stop judging my life by whether I hit milestone #3 on time. I want to see God working, even if I don’t get my routine, my role, or my recognition. And for those of us 50 and older, we need to revisit that.

You know where I get a lot of joy now? From watching people younger than me thrive. From being the one who throws the bounce pass—the assist. From helping others develop. I think that’s what our lives are meant to do. When we reach this stage, it’s time to start mentoring.

ou know, I think about Rick Pitino, the coach of St. John’s—he’ll be in March Madness around the time this podcast comes out, or it might be over by then—but he’s like 72 years old. He was the coach at Boston University when I was in school as an 18-year-old.

He’s still coaching at 72, and he’s in March Madness. He turned St. John’s around. Winston Churchill—after all this ambition in his life, all this drive—had been put out to pasture at 65 years old. Then England brings him back to lead them through World War II and to victory.

There are so many stories like that. Abraham Lincoln—after all the failure, all the difficulty—was prepared to be president at probably the most crucial point in American history.

I think we’ve got to start thinking like that.

Michael Jordan talked about being cut from his high school team. It was being cut that gave him the drive to become the player he was. He used to sign into hotels using the name of the guy who took his place on that team—to remind himself of what motivated him.

Tom Brady—drafted in the seventh round, a guy nobody really cared about—goes on to be arguably, and in my opinion absolutely, the greatest quarterback to ever play the game. Because he was able to take adversity and let it transform his life instead of letting it crush his life.

Anxiety can actually be a good thing if we use it as a signal: it’s time for me to go to God.
Stress can be a good thing if we use it as a signal: it’s time to go to God.
And fear? Fear can actually be a signal that it’s time for me to let God be in control instead of trying to control everything myself.

Prayer is something we’ve got to do a lot of. We don’t have time to get into it now, but go back and read Philippians 4:6–7:

Do not be anxious or worried about anything, but in everything—every circumstance and situation—by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, continue to make your specific requests known to God.
And the peace of God—that peace which assures the heart, that peace which transcends all understanding, that peace which stands guard over your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus—is yours.

And then there’s the Holy Spirit power, in Galatians 5:22:

“But the fruit produced by the Holy Spirit within you is divine love in all its varied expressions:
joy that overflows, peace that subdues, patience that endures, kindness in action, a life full of virtue, faith that prevails, gentleness of heart, and strength of spirit.
Never set the law above these qualities, for they are meant to be limitless.”

You know what?
If you have situational anxiety, go back to Galatians 5 and let peace subdue it.
If you have responsibility anxiety, embrace faith that allows you to prevail over those responsibilities.
If you have relationship anxiety, look at what it says about the Spirit producing love and kindness in action.
If you have transitional anxiety, like I do—patience that endures. Don’t get impatient. Just roll with it.
If you have status anxiety, have joy that overflows. Psalm 90 says, “Satisfy us, God, with your love.” Learn to be content and satisfied with what God has done in your life up till now, and trust that He’ll do even more amazing things in the future.

So we don’t need to be sad about today when tomorrow’s coming.

And when you feel spiritually exhausted, He gives us strength of spirit.
God gives us strength of spirit so we’re never defeated—so we’re never, ever, ever taken to a place where we have to give up.
We just have to wait patiently until God shows us the surprise.

We’re going to come back in a little bit after the break, and we’re going to take some questions. Then our series will be over.

Russ Ewell:
Well, Ray and Stone, it’s been great to have you guys. I know I pulled you in for a long series. People will be hearing the podcast over several weeks. I don’t know what will be going on by then—hopefully, Duke and Florida will have made it to the national championship, and Duke will have won. That’s what I’m betting on, Stone. Your Florida Bougators—I’ve been a fan this year. I keep telling you, I like them.

Stone Eleazer:
We gotta get past St. John’s and Rick Pitino, man.

Russ Ewell:
Oh, you know what you’ve got? You’ve got those big boys inside and that awesome point guard. I think that’s not gonna be a problem. Rick Pitino and St. John’s—what is it, Red Storm or whatever—they can’t shoot. They’re not good shooters, and they know they’re not good shooters. Florida’s a good shooting team. So unless Florida doesn’t shoot well, we should be good.

Anyway, everybody out there, it’s been great. I put Ray and Stone through a workout—doing podcasts is not easy. The ones we’ve been doing cover everything from spirituality to making sure we keep a spiritual culture and not turn it into a therapeutic culture. That belongs in the hands of professionals. We’ve talked about staying in our lane and making the contribution we can to our lives and the world. We’ve talked about having a relationship with God that’s personal, powerful, and purposeful. And we’ve talked about how to conquer anxiety—how to see the situations and circumstances that drive it, get underneath the hood, and do what we need to do in our relationship with God to conquer it or make use of it.

One of the fun things we’ll do at the end is answer some questions our producer, Nathan Shaffernoff, put together. These are questions from people who’ve been listening to the podcast or involved in our Best Life series.

If you haven’t read the content about Best Life, go to our website—DeepSpirituality.com—and check it out. There’s a bunch of great material, including a featured article called Blueprint for Spirituality. We’ll link it in the show notes if you want to take a look.

We also have our YouTube channel. This podcast is there, as much as I hate that—I don’t want to be on film, I’d rather it just be audio. But it’s there for people who like the video and audio together. Hopefully, we’re doing a better and better job.

Be merciful to us—we’re trying to learn how to produce and give you content that will inspire you to have great conversations with your friends and family, and to deepen your spirituality.

And again, a disclaimer—we don’t know everything. I don’t have everything together. And sometimes I know I speak emphatically, but tomorrow I may say, “I was wrong about that,” and think something different—because it is an adventure to be spiritual. But Nate, go ahead and get us some of these questions.

What does my anxiety expose or show in my walk with God, and how can I change those things? Anybody want to take a shot at that?

Ray Kim:
I’ll say, first thing—for me, when I’m anxious, what’s exposed in my relationship with God is that I don’t really think God is that big, or that He really cares, that He’s that personal, like we talked about earlier. Because I think I’ve got to face whatever I’m anxious about on my own, or try to grind it out, or rely on my own human strength—and that runs out really fast. So what it exposes is that I don’t think God is very personal.

I don’t think He’s that powerful. If I did, I would be less anxious and a lot more trusting.

Russ Ewell:
Any thoughts on that, Stone?

Stone Eleazer:
Yeah. I think anxiety is a human condition. Sometimes I think I’m never supposed to have anxiety, but if you’re human, it comes. It’s how we deal with it.

Russ, you did a sermon—gosh, years ago—and I’ve never forgotten it. You talked about four convictions. These are the things that help me. The anxiety—it’s those four convictions. I learned them from that sermon you gave a long time ago.

Number one: God is real. That means He’s present, and He’s working in our life, right?

I know sometimes I believe that, but I don’t always have a conviction. And I think conviction is what overrides emotion, right? When you have a conviction, it has enough depth to override the emotions you’re feeling. So—God is real.

Second conviction: God is loving. That means He cares about us. He wants to know how we feel. It matters to Him how we feel.

Third: God is good. It means He can be trusted. I have scriptures that go with each one of these.

And fourth: God wants to bless our lives.

So I’ve had to pray through those individually to remind myself: God is real—He’s with me. He’s loving—it matters how I feel. He’s good—He’s got my best interest at heart. And He’s trying to bless me.

I think those convictions help us override some of the emotions we feel when anxiety pops up.

Russ Ewell:
I don’t remember doing that—I’m glad it’s out there. I think I need to go back, review it, and try to do it… hypocrite that I am.

Stone Eleazer:
I’ll send you the notes.

Russ Ewell:
Yeah, thank you. Thanks for giving me credit for a sermon you did. All right, Nathan, what’s next?

So—what are some practicals for casting off our anxiety day to day, rather than just informing God that we’re anxious?

I’ll get started with that one.

One of the most difficult things for me is letting go of thoughts. If I think or feel something, I have an incredibly hard time shaking it—whether it’s wanting to help someone, feeling guilty, or just remembering I need to take the car in to get the oil changed and the thermostat fixed—which are both true. All of that can weigh on me.

I think casting our anxiety on God means letting go of it.

I’m not a great fisherman, but when I graduated high school, I had a job at Camp Swampy in White Cloud, Michigan. A guy named Kyle Drexel was my mobile home mate, and we oversaw a campground where all the employees of Steelcase could come with their RVs or tents—it was all provided by the company my dad worked for.

Kyle said, “Let’s go fishing.” I told him, “I don’t really know how to fish,” but I got a rod and we went. He showed me how to cast the rod, how to throw the lure into the water. That was so difficult for me—to toss it out, and to wait to catch something.

I think casting your anxiety means letting it go. Toss it to God—and don’t start reeling it back in.

I kept asking, “Do I reel it in now? Did I catch something yet?” And he said, “No, that’s not how it works. You’ll see the little bobber move, then you’ll know.”

I was in the boat thinking, “What’s this all about? I haven’t caught anything. I’m just sitting here.” And he said, “Russ, the whole point of fishing is to be out here, talk to each other, have a good time, enjoy nature.”

Casting our anxiety means giving it to God, and then enjoying life. Enjoy living.

I don’t do that. I cast my anxiety—“Hey God, I need this”—and then five minutes later I’m like, “Man, I don’t have it yet. What happened?” That’s not casting.

Casting is like—have a conversation, still be merry. I’m not good at this. I’m just telling everybody—I’m not good at this. I have a really difficult time enjoying life until God gives me an answer to the question.

But I think casting means: once it’s God’s, it’s in His territory. All I’m doing is enjoying the boat ride. I’m basically on a boat ride, and the lure is done.

So that’s my answer to that.
Sound good to you guys? We can move on to question number three.

Stone Eleazer:
Yeah.

Ray Kim:
Solid.

Russ Ewell:
How do I not let my stress make me lash out at the people around me?
Boy. Ray, have you—yeah, you’re shaking your head and laughing. I know you never lash out, so I don’t know how you’re going to relate to this. I don’t know how you’re going to do it.

Russ Ewell:
You said lashing out is your relative? I didn’t know you had a sibling named Lash Out Kim.

Stone Eleazer:
Yeah, could be. Lash Out. That’s funny.

Ray Kim:
You know, one thing I realized—this is where I had no awareness at all. This happened about two weeks ago. I came home, all the kids were having fun in the living room, and next thing you know, everybody just kind of evacuates as soon as I walk in.

I said, “Hey, where are you guys?”

Later, my wife and I were talking, and she said, “You know, your stress isn’t loud… but it’s like the silent assassin.”

Russ Ewell:
Hahaha!

Stone Eleazer:
Haha, yeah.

Ray Kim:
It doesn’t have to make any noise. It just evacuates everybody.

Russ Ewell:
The day of the jackal. Assassin.

Stone Eleazer:
Special forces right there.

Ray Kim:
So one thing I’m trying to work on is recognizing that when I’m stressed, it’s always a signal that I need to be vulnerable—right now. Either I haven’t been vulnerable with God, or I’m not being vulnerable with my wife, with Amy, saying, “This is something I feel powerless over,” or “This is something I’m anticipating.”

Typically, it’s one of those things—stress over a decision or responsibility. Like, am I going to set up my mom’s next medical appointment or wait until she feels better? Just basic stuff. And because I’m not being vulnerable or transparent, I lash out. And that’s something I’ve had to start seeing.

Russ Ewell:
That’s awesome. Awesome answer. Alright, Nate, hit us with another one. You knocked that one out of the park.
I still want to meet your relative—Lash Out Kim.

Next question: How do we deal with the anxiety that another person’s anxiety produces in us?

Wow. Whoever asked that has to also ask: Am I the person with the anxiety that’s producing anxiety in the person I think is producing anxiety in me? That’s the question we all have to ask.

Ray Kim:
That’s a good one.

Russ Ewell:
I’ll go ahead and say it. I had to learn this with my son, who has autism. I used to always ask, “Why is he so anxious?” But what I eventually realized is—yes, he has anxiety—but when I walk into the room anxious, I activate his anxiety.

So really, I was accusing him of causing my anxiety, when I was actually the trigger.

I think the first step is awareness. If someone has a lot of anxiety, they need to be aware of it and understand, “I can affect people this way.” But those of us around them also have to realize: they can’t always control it—especially if it’s clinical or neurological. That’s different from the more typical human-condition type of anxiety that most of us can learn to manage better.

So one answer is: be empathetic and compassionate. Ask yourself, “Can I control my anxiety?” Because when someone else’s anxiety makes me anxious—yeah, it’s irritating. I’ll be honest. But I’ve had to learn to be humble and ask, “Why can’t I keep my cool?”

I’ve got ten different things I’m working on—they’re all basically about being calm, steady, and cool-headed. I’m a long way from where I want to be.

I often describe it like this: I love horse racing—the Kentucky Derby, the Preakness, the Belmont Stakes. Secretariat is one of my favorite athletes of all time. He’s even been ranked among the greatest athletes by Sports Illustrated.

But here’s what I noticed: every racehorse has another horse walking alongside it on the way to the gate. That horse—what’s the name?—it’s not there to race. It’s there to calm the racehorse. Those racehorses are high-strung, fast-twitch athletes. That companion horse walks with them to settle them down.

What more of us need to be is not the racehorse, but the horse that walks alongside—to bring calm to anxious people.

Easier said than done. But through the power of the Holy Spirit, we can do it. We can make the world easier for those with anxiety if we take on the role of being steady, calm, and grounded—so that when someone else is suffering, we’re not adding to it. We’re helping steady them.

You guys want to add anything to that? Or feel good with that?

Stone Eleazer:
No, I think you did great. The only other thing I’d add is something we talked about a couple of podcasts back—when you get that way, just make sure you’re reaching out to someone, talking, and letting them know your anxiety. That way, you can relieve yourself a little bit too.

Russ Ewell:
Yeah. And take breaks. Take breaks. Sometimes you’ve got to get away, and the person you’re helping may need more relationships too.
But as a caretaker, I know this—you need people who help you get time to recover, because we can’t sustain anything forever.

I think it’s a great time to put in a word for our culture and our people out there. Mental health, in my opinion, is just part of the human condition—just like cardiovascular problems or arthritis might be.

So what we want to do is create churches that are extraordinarily empathetic and adaptable—communities that are inclusive of people with mental health challenges. Not annoyed, not bothered, not avoiding them.

That’s a real spiritual challenge for all of us, because Jesus avoided no one. He comforted everyone.

Let’s go to our next question.

Russ Ewell:
What you just said leads into the next question: What convictions need to be sharpened to deal with diagnosed anxiety?

If you have diagnosed anxiety—what conviction needs to be sharpened?

I’ll take that one. I think that’s actually outside of our lane. I’m not a psychiatrist, I’m not a psychologist, so I can’t speak to the medical or psychological side of that.

What I can say is none of us here are psychiatrists or psychologists. We can offer spiritual counsel, but really, the goal is to work hard to create a culture that includes people with mental health challenges.

If you feel included and get great treatment—I think great treatment means listening to your psychiatrist, taking the meds you need to take, doing the recommended therapy, or finding the right support—then maybe I can answer the question spiritually.

From a spiritual point of view:
First, you need to have a conviction that what God provides is an extraordinary relationship that enters the soul—not just the mind—and transforms your life with hope. You have to believe that.

Second, don’t look down on yourself. See this as a physiological weakness built into your life with a purpose. My kids have special needs, and I believe they have purpose.

So, see your life as having purpose. Then, surround yourself with a support group who understands. Be transparent—like Stone said—and let people support you.

I’m not commenting on what conviction you should have because you have a mental health challenge. I can’t speak to that. I’m saying this is what God’s church should be for you. And this is how you can approach your relationship with God.

There’s nothing wrong with you. Psalm 139 says we are fearfully and wonderfully made—and there is purpose in everything going on in your life.

Christians need to believe that about people with special needs, mental health challenges, grief, disease, aging—everything.

The church should be a place that says: You have purpose. You have value. No matter who you are. And we are the most supportive family in existence for that.

You guys want to add anything before we move on to the last question?

Stone Eleazer:
I think you handled that really well. I agree with everything you said. I don’t have anything to add that would make it better. That was good.

Russ Ewell:
And all of us have experience with people who have mental health challenges, so we’re not talking about this like we don’t know how hard it is.

If you’re out there feeling discouraged, like, I don’t know how to explain it. I don’t know how to talk about it. I don’t know how to be—that’s okay.

You don’t need to explain it or know exactly what to say. You just need to be yourself, and the people around you need to welcome that.

Hopefully, all of us can become the kind of Christians who do that. And God will bless us for it.

Ray, were you going to say something before we move to the last question?

Ray Kim:
No, I just wanted to highlight again how important it is for friends to help us be aware that some things are beyond our expertise.

Sometimes, friends just need to say, Hey, we’re here for you, but this is something else—you may need more support, and that’s okay. We’re supportive, but we know our role.
So I think friendship is really key.

Russ Ewell:
Yeah. I mean, it’s the same thing as when a friend goes through a health challenge. I’ve never picked up a scalpel and said, Let me save you a little time—I can fix that shoulder right now. Just lie down.

But sometimes we do that with mental health—try to become the therapist because we read half a book. Probably a mistake.

Read the Bible. Pray. Be spiritual. Let God bless it.

Alright, last question: How do I create a calm environment in my home?
How do I create a calm environment in my home?

Well, both of you are masters of this. I’m not good at it. I know how to create chaos in my home—I’ve got steps for that. But I’ll leave this one to you.

Ray Kim:
You know, I thought about a scripture for that—Psalm 131:2, in The Voice translation. It says:

“Of one thing I’m certain: my soul has become calm, quiet, and contented in You. Like a weaned child resting upon his mother, I am quiet. My soul is like this weaned child.”

A lot of times, I focus on how do I calm my home—but I skip right past am I calm?

First, am I calm? And second, am I bringing calm into the space?

Because I’ll be thinking, I’ve got to calm my son down, I’ve got to calm this situation down—but have I actually done the spiritual work to calm myself down inside?

And that takes everything we’ve been talking about in this podcast.

Russ Ewell:
I’m guilty. You’re making me feel guilty, Ray.

Ray Kim:
I’ve got to take my anxieties to God. I need to talk to friends to gain spiritual awareness. And then, I need to face the facts—because sometimes I’m overreacting and letting emotions outweigh truth.

Russ Ewell:
Now you’re accusing me, Ray.

Ray Kim:
A lot of times, it’s not the home that needs calming first—it’s the person bringing the most emotional influence. And that’s typically me, as a husband, as a father. So I start with that.

Russ Ewell:
So basically what you’re saying, Ray, is: Russ, put a camera up and film the house before you walk in—you’ll see it was already calm.
If you want to calm the home, take a walk outside! Go for a bike ride.
Like you said, everyone evacuates because they know it’s you.
That’s one good thing.
Stone, do you want to add something? Then I’ll close it out.

Stone Eleazer:
I can only speak as someone who lived in a home with emotional health challenges and high anxiety.

I spent most of my time thinking, I’m the calming influence, I’m sacrificing for everyone else, I’m helping. But now that the kids are grown and moved out, we’ve had some honest conversations. And they’ll say, Dad was the most anxious one in the house!

And I’m like, Really? After all that effort? And they say, Yeah, Dad, you just couldn’t hide it.

So I agree with Ray—get support, have good friends, and have the conversations that help you get to a place where you can actually be calm.

But also, something Russ taught me that helped a lot: a calm house doesn’t mean everything’s right.

You can have chaotic days, and that’s normal. I used to never let my kids have conflict. If they started fighting, I’d jump in: Hey, hey! Calm down! Separate corners! But that wasn’t always the best move.

Sometimes they needed to work things out. And that can look hectic. That’s part of growing. So calm isn’t always the ultimate goal.

Russ Ewell:
You’re reminding me of something. When I was about nine years old, our family went to visit another family’s home. Our family wasn’t chaotic at all—but we were loud. There was a lot of laughing, a lot of action. We were a very emotional family—in a good way.

So we walk into this other family’s house, and we just kind of come in as a gaggle of people, no particular order. Someone knocks, they let us in, and we see all of their kids sitting on the couch in order of age. The mom is standing there, the dad opens the door. And we’re all just looking at this like, uh-oh. I don’t even know how to do that.

And it wasn’t like we were undisciplined. My parents had basic rules: do this, don’t do that. Very simple. After that, whatever else you did was your business.

Sometimes we interpret calm as control. I can be like that. It’s not that the house is chaotic—it’s that emotionally, we want things to feel more controlled. Especially after working 10 or 12 hours a day, we just don’t have the energy for anything else.

Here are a few tips I’ve picked up from others over the years.
First: structure. A lot of times, parents—especially newer ones—don’t have basic structure. You need to know when you’re having breakfast, lunch, and dinner. When your kids go out, do they know when they need to come back?

Do you pay attention to how much they sleep—and how much you sleep?

Sometimes I see families run nonstop all weekend. The minute school’s out on Friday, it’s: something Friday night, then something after that, then up early Saturday to hike, climb redwoods, go apple picking, birthday parties, chores, mowing the lawn—it’s just activity after activity.

This is a little like what Jonathan Haidt says: kids need time to play—and also to rest.

A lot of times homes feel chaotic not because they are—but because we’re all wired. Everyone’s been drinking caffeine, not sleeping, rushing around, full of angst—and it explodes.

What I’ve noticed in 32 years of parenting is: your family will reflect the level of disarray you allow. I don’t mean controlling, but simple things. Like, if your kid stays up till 1am and you drag them out of bed at 8am on Saturday, you’re going to get something back—and it won’t be good.

So again: structure. Not rigidity. Just a plan. Where are you going? How long will you be gone? Did you eat?
Kids will run around without eating or drinking. You’ve got to remind them. Especially if they have any health challenges.

Another thing is this: I love The Crown, the Netflix series. In the later seasons—though I didn’t watch the last one—Queen Elizabeth says something that stuck with me: sometimes the thing to do is nothing.

We’re not comfortable with quiet. We’re not comfortable doing nothing. But it’s okay to sit and read a book. That may sound outdated—people say no one reads—but maybe we should, to slow down.

I’m not good at this, but it’s okay to sit down and not talk about anything serious.
Add some structure, and also teach yourself and your kids: it’s okay to do nothing.

You don’t have to go to everything. You don’t have to travel everywhere you’re invited. You don’t have to buy everything you want. Moderation helps calm the anxiety.

Have conversations, not just commands. Don’t just say, “You have to be in by this time,” but explain: “Every time you don’t get eight hours of sleep over the weekend, you melt down on Monday.” Help them connect the dots. Educate them.

And as parents, we have to say to our kids: “I have needs too.”
Sometimes kids forget—parents need sleep, food, and fun.

Sit down as a family and say: “You’re getting your needs met—but we need something too. We should have a life.” Some parents feel guilty doing that. But it helps bring calm.

And I love what you said, Stone: don’t always interpret craziness at home as a lack of calm.
Sometimes laughter is good. Sometimes things falling over and breaking is good. It’s normal life, and it’s okay to let it go.

I’m terrible at that—but I know it’s the right thing.

It’s been great having you, Stone and Ray, on the podcast.
We hope those listening can start some conversations, get some hope and vision—for your relationship with God, for being spiritual, and helping others be spiritual. We’re all growing. We’re trying to make a positive impact on the world.

We’ve done our best to stay in our lane of spirituality while talking about emotions and mental health. If we stepped out of our lane a bit, forgive us.

Please check out the Best Life series on Deep Spirituality—it’s got a lot of helpful life skills that can help create a calm home. And explore our other podcasts too. Share them!

Why are we doing this? Because in all the noise online, we believe God’s voice needs to be heard. That’s why we use a lot of scripture and why we talk about these things.

We’re not perfect—we’re growing. But we appreciate you being with us.

You can send questions and thoughts through the Deep Spirituality site—just click “Contact Us.”
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Thanks for all your encouragement. We hear it. We know it’s helping you. And we thank you for listening.

Have a wonderful day. We look forward to seeing you again on the podcast.