When Your Whole World Falls Apart—What’s Next?

Do you ever feel like you’ve failed so hard your world came crashing down? We’ve all been there.

Join host Russ Ewell and guests Josh Turner and Gary Ruelas as they unpack a powerful story of catastrophic failure that led to an even more profound destiny. We’re talking about more than just bouncing back—we’re talking about the difference between a life guided by your plan versus a life guided by God’s. Get ready to rethink everything you thought you knew about fear, failure, and your future.

Don’t let one bad moment define your entire life’s purpose! Listen now and discover the beautiful path God has waiting for you, even if it’s not the one you expected.

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Scriptures:

Lie not in wait as a wicked man against the dwelling of the righteous; do no violence to his home; [16] for the righteous falls seven times and rises again, but the wicked stumble in times of calamity.

Proverbs 24:15-16 ESV

From one ancestor he made all nations to inhabit the whole earth, and he allotted the times of their existence and the boundaries of the places where they would live,

Acts 17:26 NRSV

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 14:6 NIV

Since my youth, God, you have taught me, and to this day I declare your marvelous deeds.

Psalm 71:17 NIV

Even if we feel guilty, God is greater than our feelings, and he knows everything.

1 John 3:20 NLT

One afternoon about three o’clock, Cornelius had a vision. He clearly saw an angel from God coming to him and saying, “Cornelius!” [4] Staring at the angel and feeling afraid, Cornelius said, “What do you want, sir?” The angel said to him, “God has heard your prayers and has seen your gifts to the poor. He remembers you and all you have done.

Acts 10:3-4 ERV

so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, [18] may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and height and depth,

Ephesians 3:17-18 NASB

As for us, we have all of these great witnesses who encircle us like clouds. So we must let go of every wound that has pierced us and the sin we so easily fall into. Then we will be able to run life’s marathon race with passion and determination, for the path has been already marked out before us. [2] We look away from the natural realm and we focus our attention and expectation onto Jesus who birthed faith within us and who leads us forward into faith’s perfection. His example is this: Because his heart was focused on the joy of knowing that you would be his, he endured the agony of the cross and conquered its humiliation, and now sits exalted at the right hand of the throne of God!

Hebrews 12:1-2 TPT

God is our refuge and strength, always ready to help in times of trouble. [2] So we will not fear when earthquakes come and the mountains crumble into the sea.

Psalm 46:1-2 NLT

Transcription

Russ Ewell:
Welcome to De-Spirituality, our podcast. We’re excited today because we’re going to talk about things that have to do with the fear of failure. Well, the fear of failure isn’t the only thing we’re going to talk about, but last time you heard us, it was myself, Josh Turner, and Gary Ruelas, and we were talking. We had a great time together. We didn’t want to stop, and as a result, we’re back. In coming back,

Gary and I heard part of a story Josh was trying to share in the first episode, but I cut it like a bad director. So Josh was like, “What are you doing? You cut the whole plot!” So I got Josh back in here. Folks, listen up. Gary and I know a little of the story, but I think this will set the tone for talking about failure, not being risk-averse or risk-tolerant, and being willing to take chances in your life.

Gary Ruelas:
Thank you.

Russ Ewell:
Good things—or even big things—might happen when you do. But ultimately, let’s let Josh tell that story. Josh and Gary, welcome, and we’ll let Josh get us started.

Josh Turner:
All right, thanks. Thanks for having us again. When I think of failure, I’ve got a lot of stories, honestly—but the one I want to share was a time when catastrophic thinking almost took me out. Going back to undergrad, I was getting interested in doing physics and started applying to all these schools.

I got rejected from all the top schools, except for Santa Barbara. So I go to Santa Barbara as an undergrad, get interested in physics, and learn Santa Barbara is one of the top schools in physics. So now I’m thinking, “Okay, maybe I have an opportunity here.” I end up getting a summer internship at Lawrence Berkeley Lab, things are going great, so I apply to grad school again.

Russ Ewell:
Wow.

Josh Turner:
I apply to all the top schools, but again, I wasn’t getting in where I wanted. I didn’t get accepted to any of my top choices. In fact, UC Berkeley didn’t even send a response. So I called the physics department from a payphone in the library—”Hey, this is Josh Turner. Just wondering if I got in.” The person on the line had no idea who I was. She said she’d check, and after what felt like hours (but was probably a minute), she came back and said, “Sorry, you didn’t make it.” Click—hangs up.

I’m sitting there at the payphone thinking, “That was my last chance. Everything’s rejected. My whole world is falling apart.” But as it turns out, I ended up getting into a school in Boston. So I did go to grad school, but not where I thought I would. And where the story takes a turn: I started studying the Bible in Boston, learning about God, and learning how to change my life, which was tough. I’m in physics grad school, arguing and discussing science, God, the Big Bang—maybe that’s another podcast episode.

But eventually, I got to the point where I said, “Okay God, I’m going to go all in. I’ll completely change my life.” So I humbled myself, changed, and got baptized—I became a disciple. And soon after, you’ll never guess what happened. I wouldn’t have believed it myself if it didn’t happen to me: I got an opportunity to go back to Berkeley for my PhD work.

Gary Ruelas:
Hmm.

Russ Ewell:
Wow.

Josh Turner:
The crazy thing was, I didn’t do anything different. On my own accolades, I couldn’t get in. But after I decided to follow God, all of a sudden, I had this fellowship to go back and do my grad work at Lawrence Berkeley Lab. It was as if God gave me my dream back, but along a completely different path than I expected.

Russ Ewell:
Yeah, 100%, 100%.

Josh Turner:
It’s just an example to me—especially when talking about failure—how sometimes we have our own vision of what’s supposed to happen, but God has a better plan in store. That was my experience.

Russ Ewell:
Well, what you’re saying is really interesting because you’re not just talking about failure or rejection—you’re talking about destiny and about a path. I think regardless of what someone believes—whether they believe in God, Jesus, whether they’re agnostic, atheist, Buddhist, or whatever—most people feel there’s something more to life than just getting up, going to work or school, coming home, going to sleep, and doing it all again.

Most people have that sense, but sometimes they lose it because of what they go through. I want to come back to you in a moment, Josh, so you can share the rest of your story with the audience. But Gary, let’s get your perspective on this. Josh’s story covers resilience, failure, and how God or destiny can work in your life. Gary, jump in here.

Gary Ruelas:
Sure. Well, it’s always interesting—I’ve got this part of my brain that’s always looking at the opposite side of things, playing devil’s advocate, arguing the opposite even with the pastor or the rabbi: “What about this? What about that?” I think there’s value in that perspective.

Listening to your story, Josh, it’s a great blessing. But what about people who don’t get what they want? What if their path leads elsewhere—they never get the PhD, or they don’t even get into grad school? What then? Are we saying they’re not “Christian enough,” or they didn’t study the Bible enough? Because if we say, “I became a disciple, I committed to God, and I feel God blessed me,” what about the other side of that coin?

I think what you’re talking about, Russ, is that there’s something deeper than circumstance or achievement. Sometimes having those blessings makes us think we’re really good because of what we’ve gotten—but spirituality is independent of that.

How do we find resilience and peace through faith when the storm isn’t stopping? When the next hardship or loss hits—when our child gets sick or we face another challenge—does that mean we’re not doing something right? Some would say yes. I remember my aunt was very religious, very Bible-driven, and she’d say, “God punishes those who don’t believe with illness,” or “that person’s paying for their sins.” That’s a pretty heavy guilt trip until you really start to think about it.

Josh Turner:
Right.

Russ Ewell:
Yeah.

Gary Ruelas:
Exactly. That’s heavy.

Josh Turner:
Yeah.

Gary Ruelas:
Do people actually believe that? Maybe fear guides them down a certain path, I don’t know. But I do believe our soul and our spirit are beyond our circumstances, though God does bless us as well and maybe He’s just seeing what we do with it. I don’t have the answer to that. One day we may figure it out—but that’s what’s been on my mind as I listen: what a wonderful story, but there’s always the other side of the street.

Russ Ewell:
Yep, that’s right. That’s the neighborhood most of us live in. I don’t have a PhD, so I guess I didn’t do enough right. Clearly, I’m a complete failure! Let me throw something in here… I love—

Josh Turner:
Yeah, I guess.

Gary Ruelas:
Well, and I can say it the other way. I have a couple of doctorates, but I certainly don’t feel as smart as Josh. It didn’t resolve anything for me.

Russ Ewell:
Right—between the two of you, you’ve got multiple doctorates, but neither of you is Steve Jobs—and he didn’t even finish college! So I guess you both have failed, and I’m here to help you process it. How could we have worked so hard and accomplished so little? Jump in there, Josh.

Josh Turner:
That’s right… “Failed!”

But really, I want to clarify something—my story isn’t “here’s how to get a PhD.” What I really learned was early on, my world revolved around whether or not I could get into grad school. That was my entire identity. So when I didn’t get in, my whole world crashed. But what I realized is that isn’t everything; there’s more to life. The funny thing is, once I let go and reprioritized, God gave me back my dream—but only when it wasn’t my main priority anymore. That’s the way God sometimes works: you don’t know what will happen, but He’s got a plan, even if it’s not yours.

Russ Ewell:
Absolutely. Your story is valid, and it can be a path for others to imitate. You don’t have to edit it. But Gary’s asking, what about people whose story is different?

Gary Ruelas:
Right. I also want to point out something in your story, Josh, with your permission—if I’m overstepping, let me know. You’ve told me about your early life—growing up in Turlock, Central California. I had never heard of Turlock and had to look it up! There wasn’t much, institutionally, to guide you to where you are now. I see a vision of young you—launching out on your own, struggling and hitting wall after wall. But you kept pushing. That’s the unspoken story. That perseverance, that stamina—something inside you kept you moving forward. Even before you found God or studied the Bible, He already had you. The day you converted was really acknowledging something that was always with you.

You could have stayed where you were, but you didn’t—you kept going.

Josh Turner:
Right, right.

Russ Ewell:
Gary, I think your point still stands. That’s why I said Josh should tell his story as it is—no explanation needed. But your question is valid: What if you push and work and your story turns out different? What if your path isn’t what you imagined—maybe you get your girlfriend pregnant, and instead of going to college you go to work? Does that mean you’re a bad person or you’ve blown it?

For me, there’s a scripture that covers all this. I appreciate both of you sharing, because we’re not just speaking to Christians or even just the spiritual—our audience includes people with all kinds of perspectives. Some might say God guided Josh. Others might call it destiny, or just hard work and perseverance. That’s okay—every perspective belongs in the conversation.

Personally, my worldview is Christianity. Proverbs 24:15–16 (ESV) says, “For the righteous falls seven times and rises again, but the wicked stumble in times of calamity.” The Bible isn’t talking about anyone being perfect—just being right with God, striving to have right relationships, and rising after setbacks.

Growing up, my mom taught in the inner city even though we lived in the suburbs. She believed in helping Black kids like herself, inspired by the time Jackie Robinson visited her school. She wanted me to have more Black friends and so one summer, instead of playing suburban basketball, she sent me to play on an inner city team. At 13, she dropped me off at a park that felt dangerous to me, but I learned some big lessons there—those kids played for survival, not just enjoyment. Their tenacity and grit were different from mine. I realized the only real difference between us was the circumstances of our birth.

It’s like that old political line: “Some people are born on third base and think they hit a triple.” A lot of what shapes us is out of our control—our genetics, our environment, our history. Acts 17 even says God arranges our times and places. You don’t need a PhD—or anything else—to have a purpose.

I want everyone listening, especially those with learning differences, disabilities, mental health struggles, or economic hardships, to know: your destiny is just as valuable. Sometimes your purpose is like my grandmother’s—it might not be for you to go to college, but to be the one who creates opportunities for your grandchildren.

That’s what I want this podcast to be about—telling stories that inspire people not to give up, no matter what their path looks like. Josh’s journey is just one example; there are countless others, and all are needed.

Gary Ruelas:
Wow, that’s beautiful.

Josh Turner:
Yeah.

Josh Turner:
Yeah, actually, this reminds me of the physics version of what you were talking about—the idea of being “born on third base.” My own experience relates. When I was a freshman in college, I took my first physics course and thought, “I want to do physics.” The first midterm comes and I get a C-minus. That may not sound terrible to some, but in physics, that’s like 30%—it’s pretty bad.

So I went to talk to my professor for help. He looked at my test and said, “Physics isn’t for everyone.” I told him I wanted help, but he just said, “I can’t help you.” He told me the drop deadline was Friday and I should drop the class. I remember thinking, “How can you say that? You don’t even know me.” This person, who was supposed to teach and help, was essentially telling me to quit. So, I walked out—but I didn’t quit physics—I’m kidding about that!

I was so stunned that, instead of giving up, I went back to my dorm and did every single problem in the back of that chapter, just working through it myself. The next midterm came, in a huge class of about 300 people. I finished first—never happened before, never happened again, but all because I worked like crazy. I walked down to the front, handed in my test, and the professor recognized me, kind of smirked, and said, “Pretty hard, huh?” I just said, “It was kind of easy,” and walked out.

It was one of those moments of hitting obstacles and choosing not to let that failure or someone else’s opinion define what I would do or who I would be.

Russ Ewell:
I think that’s really important—and it’s exactly what Gary brought up about your backstory. How do you sit in front of a professor who says, “Physics is not for everyone,” and not let that destroy your confidence? How do you not take the easier path or let someone else’s negativity become your identity? Most people listening have had something like that happen—been labeled, discouraged, or defined by someone else—and never got past it. How did you do it?

Gary Ruelas:
Hmm.

Josh Turner:
Right, absolutely.

Gary Ruelas:
Let me comment a bit about spirituality—it’s relevant to everything we’ve talked about. There’s some inner energy, passion, or “soul” that science even picks up on—MRIs and PET scans show changes when people are spiritual or driven by this inner force, which some call divine resonance. It’s like a plant reaching for sunlight—something organic wakes up inside us that goes beyond logic and limits.

Whether you call it love, the Holy Spirit, Dharma, or something else, there’s an energy beyond form and logic. When we open ourselves to it—through prayer, mantra, meditation, mindfulness—it transcends pure logic. There was a comment about AI and spirituality: Is AI going to take us over? I wrote to a New York Times editor saying, AI only wins if we lose our soul; otherwise, it’s just another tool.

AI can never have a soul, but if we get detached and lose touch with our own soul, that’s when we risk becoming lost. There are real consequences, like people getting consumed by delusions fed by AI—but ultimately, these tools should help us, not dominate us.

When we tap into the energy inside us—be it through logic, physics, planning, or even simple jobs—we can find happiness and fulfillment through passion that’s inspired from a divine source.

There’s a psychiatrist, Wilhelm Reich, who tried to measure “orgone energy”—an energy in the atmosphere he believed could heal people. He built boxes to capture this energy and even met with Einstein. But the FDA came after him for practicing illegal medicine, put him in jail, and burned all his research. Still, he was trying to quantify this energy, and something happens that science hasn’t fully explained. I think Jesus described this best.

Maybe through prayer and acceptance, we tap into that energy that lets us transcend circumstances and brings deep contentment, despite our challenges.

Russ Ewell:
I love that, Gary. I want to bring Josh back in and hear how he handled his situation. Gary, my worldview is rooted in John 14—Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Globally, I see God as the creator of all thoughts, inventions, and innovations—including AI. I believe everything points to him and helps humanity flourish.

I see God reaching out through various cultures—whether it’s Star Wars or Buddhism, I may not believe every philosophy, but I think God is present and trying to point everyone toward Jesus, who embodies that fullness. When I read about Wilhelm Reich, for example, I’m intrigued—it’s all part of a world where the spiritual is more powerful and pervasive than anything we make.

Sometimes Christians box themselves in, thinking only their own knowledge counts, but anything that challenges that can actually expand understanding. That’s why I want these conversations to be inclusive.

Gary Ruelas:
Can I ask you something, Russ? I really want to get your perspective, because you’re my teacher here. We say God is in everything, and my definition is that God is love—a kind of energy that brings connection, healing, and growth. Then I might say, “I’m also a Buddhist, a Catholic, a Jew, a Sikh—because God is in everything.” But you said, “I’m not a Buddhist,” and that gave me a knee-jerk reaction. How do we separate ourselves from the collective, but not dilute? How do we stay solid in our faith—I’m committed to Christ—yet still walk in the mystery of everything else, without denying others’ experiences or feeling superior?

Russ Ewell:
That’s a really good and biblical question. I don’t know that I can teach you—every human being has to make that choice about how they view their relationship with God. Early on, I’d have said, “Jesus is right, and you’re wrong, so let’s move on.” Over time, I’ve realized my conviction is my own. When I switched from economics to religion in college, I clashed with my professor, who accused me of believing in absolute truth. That’s probably typical for my brand of Christianity. I believe the Bible is absolute truth; I measure everything else against it.

But does everyone have to share that conviction? No, I don’t think so. Everyone has a choice, and what matters to me now is not convincing people to believe exactly as I do, but inviting people to think about what they believe. I think the bigger problem in America isn’t that people disagree about specifics, but that so many don’t believe anything except “I’m right and you’re wrong.” That’s not a belief system, that’s just ideology—and it quickly turns society barbaric.

I believe what I believe is right, but I also started as an agnostic, and I absolutely believe God was working in my life then. There are scriptures that say God is with us from our youth and is greater than even our thoughts and instincts. Yes, Jesus makes exclusive claims—he’s clear about what it means to follow him. But that doesn’t mean you can’t learn from other traditions, cultures, or perspectives.

As a Christian, for me, Jesus is first and the standard—everything else I study or believe is filtered through him. But I don’t call myself a Buddhist because I want to give people clarity about where I stand and who Jesus is. Professionally, I’ve found that clarity helps others find Jesus, too, without confusion. Still, I never want to close the door on others’ backgrounds or cultures. For example, I wouldn’t want someone deeply connected to their African roots to feel they must erase their identity to follow Jesus. There’s room for a bigger picture—one that honors people’s full journeys.

Gary Ruelas:
It just gets to the point where, without derailing us, all these religious semantics—“I’m Baptist, not Episcopalian” or “I’m a Northern Baptist, not a Southern Baptist”—all these divisions just feel like an endless unfolding of adversity. The distinctions can become exhausting.

Russ Ewell:
We’ll get back to Josh, because I know people want that discussion—but I hear you and agree. Sometimes the sheer amount of label and division is overwhelming.

Josh Turner:
Right.

Russ Ewell:
Yes, I see your point. I’m really not into all that endless categorization either.

Gary Ruelas:
Those divisions overlay into everything else, too. I’m playing the devil’s advocate—or maybe the Jesus advocate! Maybe I should say that instead.

Russ Ewell:
I love that! Be a Jesus advocate, not a devil’s advocate. And to clarify: for Christians out there, I’m not asking anyone to be Buddhist or anything else. That’s not this conversation at all. The real point, as Gary highlights, is that labeling can easily cause us to miss Jesus himself. The focus should always be on Jesus, seen in everything—not on getting stuck in the semantics.

Gary Ruelas:
I just want to make that clear—I’m not practicing those labels, just making a point.

Russ Ewell:
Exactly. If we keep labeling, people will miss Jesus. The goal is to keep Jesus at the center, letting people see him everywhere. But you’re also right, Gary, that this is part of the larger challenge of our era—the Gen X problem, as you said. Labeling and division are at the heart of a lot of our social struggles.

Gary Ruelas:
Exactly. It’s the same paradigm causing so much disturbance and dichotomy in society.

Russ Ewell:
We’ll come back to that after hearing from Josh, and we’ll take a short break (if my glutes don’t move soon I’ll be in trouble). Let’s connect it for our listeners: This podcast isn’t just for people who go to church, or Christians, but for anyone wrestling with meaning—thinking about Jesus, power, energy, flow, and the different languages used around the world to discuss these things. As Gary said, getting lost in semantics can keep us from the main thing.

And, Josh, what you described is defying logic—you tapped into a source of confidence beyond IQ or statistics. Whether someone is told, “You’ll never go to college,” or, “That’s not possible,” there has to be something beyond mental intelligence. In that moment—your physics professor telling you physics isn’t for everyone—what kicked in for you mentally and emotionally? Most people would have just given up, or drowned their sorrows in ice cream or something stronger. How did you process that and keep going?

Josh Turner:
Yeah, I mean, that’s the thing—you’re hearing my story now, but the reality is, I’m from Turlock, I barely got into school, didn’t get into my top choices, didn’t know what physics even was, and my first test was a C-minus. The professor says, “This isn’t for you.” At that point, it felt like everything was against me. It wasn’t about IQ or intellect—I wasn’t the smartest kid. What got me through was just stubbornness, a refusal to let someone else tell me what I could do.

The message I want to share is: don’t let anyone else define what you can do. Why should a random physics professor determine my major, my career, or my worth? It’s about taking initiative and deciding, “I’ll determine that.” I told my son once—he tried out for the soccer team, didn’t make it, and was devastated. I told him about Michael Jordan getting cut from his basketball team. Imagine if he’d said, “I’ll never play again.” But instead, he worked harder and came back.

It’s the same principle: you can give up or go back, train, and try again. I think that’s the lesson—even when you fail, there’s something bigger out there, as Russ mentioned from scripture: “the righteous man falls seven times and rises again.” It’s about not giving up and believing you can move forward, no matter what others say.

Russ Ewell:
I want to tie that back to what you just said. In the Bible, “righteous” is defined by relationships, not performance. What you showed was agency—a self-determination that can’t be reduced to logic or IQ. Those weed-out classes are designed to push people out, but what Josh is sharing is that agency can come from a deeper place.

Josh, at that time, were you a Christian?

Josh Turner:
No, not at all—I was just a regular kid.

Russ Ewell:
Exactly, so as Gary mentioned before, God is still working in your life, even if you’re not a formal believer yet. There are plenty of biblical examples—like Cornelius or Paul—of people being guided by God before becoming Christians. God moves in all our lives, whether we know it or not.

Whether you have faith in God, destiny, or even just imagination… you need something bigger than other people’s opinions to shape what’s possible for you. Imagination is what lets us go beyond the facts and imagine different outcomes. Most great discoveries start with someone defying what the world says is possible.

And, yes, it should be said—Josh, you’re obviously highly intelligent, so not everyone should ignore a professor’s advice in the same field! Maybe your breakthrough is in another area entirely.

But the point remains: your identity and purpose aren’t limited by external labels or setbacks. Whether you’re the street sweeper, a novelist, or have an accent—your worth and possibility are yours to define.

What we’re really exploding here is that the fear of failure only paralyzes us when we lose the sense there’s something (or Someone) bigger at work in our lives. 

Gary Ruelas:
A lot of diagnostic terms are now part of everyday language to describe experiences that weren’t originally meant to fall under those labels. Terms like ADHD once referred to significant dysfunctions—real, measurable disturbances in quality of life compared to the general population. Now, however, these words are used to describe everyday disappointments, frustrations, or preoccupations that don’t actually meet psychiatric definitions. For example, someone might say, “I had a panic attack,” when they just had anxiety about a presentation, even though a true panic attack would send you to the ER. Or, “I’m bipolar,” just because they felt sad after a breakup. So the language has become part of our social matrix—almost an accepted norm, rather than a sign of real disturbance.

In some ways, this is positive because it helps dismantle stigma, but on the other hand, people now cling to these terms as part of their identity—“I have ADHD, so what do I do with that?” The resources are sometimes available, sometimes not; but regardless, the language is more commonplace, often without meaning what it once did.

Russ Ewell:
That’s interesting. Psychology and psychiatry are often called “soft sciences” compared to harder sciences like physics and chemistry. I’m not sure about that distinction, but you see it in how people use terms. Society is much more comfortable using psychological or sociological language for everyday experiences—they don’t reach for physics terms right away. Physics or biology just isn’t as woven into our culture. Here’s my point:

There are books addressing the problem you’re describing, where society overuses medication or medicalizes normal events, and people use clinical terms for things that aren’t necessarily clinical. I recently heard someone say, “Today, a lot of people treat normal suffering as trauma.” I don’t blame psychology for that; I think it’s partly because faith, spirituality, and religion have been pushed out of much of society—like when colleges close religion departments. When you take religion out of the public square, you lose a certain language and framework for making sense of suffering.

Stephen Prothero of Boston University argued that we’re now a religiously illiterate country—that it would help kids to study world religions just to be broadly educated. In decades past, people had a religious vocabulary. Then, as emotional intelligence became popular, they gained an emotional vocabulary. But now, we use psychological labels when discussing emotions and suffering.

We desperately need better spiritual and emotional education so people can manage life and suffering more effectively. At the same time, there’s still a great need for clinical help for those with severe challenges—I heard an ADHD doctor say many people in prison are really untreated ADHD. So there are three big problems:

• Less faith and religious language for meaning
• Inadequate mental health treatment for those who need clinical help
• Misuse of psychological language for normal life suffering

Look at the statistics about men: four times more likely to die by suicide, twelve times more likely to be incarcerated, one in seven men reports having no friends, and three out of four “deaths of despair” are men. Young men under 30 are 24% less wealthy than previous generations. We’re facing a crisis, especially among men.

The community-building institutions of the past—church, Scouts, etc.—are fading. We also don’t do a good job teaching kids how to process emotions, and we don’t always identify or treat clinical problems effectively.

I deal with parents who think their kids don’t need treatment, or who rely solely on religious solutions while ignoring clinical depression or anxiety. You can read the Bible all day, but if someone needs mental health treatment, they need it.

Gen Z, at least, seems aware of these needs—they’re not afraid to bring them up. But our society isn’t well-equipped to help them process what they’re feeling and move forward.

That was long-winded, but those are some thoughts for you guys, especially about men and young boys. My own dad, a Korean War vet, was emotionally reserved, and I had to learn emotional skills—society didn’t teach them well. When you have both spiritual and emotional vocabulary, you’re better able to handle failure, build resilience, and find your path to success.

Gary, you’re an expert on this, so I’d love your thoughts.

Gary Ruelas:
It’s interesting; a monk once told me, “Religion is for those who are afraid of being broken. Spirituality is for the rest of us who have been.” I think it’s that vulnerability—being fragile—that allows us to find each other and seek help. If you’re having continual challenges, reach out for help. There are tools out there. And you’re right, the language is evolving and I don’t think we’re going back. We’ll probably need a new language for when we cross that next tipping point, because now the terms are so commonplace they’ve lost some of their weight.

Growing up, my mom would read Ann Landers on Sundays—everyone would. She’d give advice in her column, but now, for the New York Times, there’s “Ask Your Therapist.” That used to be taboo—in the past, if you saw a therapist, you kept it quiet. Now it’s normalized.

But there are real differences: Ann Landers dealt with everyday questions; now, people write about despair, loneliness, and not wanting to live. We need a language for that, real tools, and we can’t dilute those labels anymore. The biggest challenge is how to identify who really needs intervention, because the language has changed so much.

Men, especially, have always struggled with these things. The older I get, the more I see the trends—men talk less about their problems, are more likely to drink, get in fights, or end up in jail. More women than men seek psychotherapy and treatment, while there are more men in jail. And, as you said, women are more likely to go to church and bring their kids.

(Half-joking) I always say, if you want a nice night out, lather your husband with progesterone—then hang out with your girlfriends! The point is, men and women are wired differently; men have always been the “hunters,” working alone and keeping things in.

Russ Ewell:
I want to get Josh in on this. My belief is that therapy, psychiatry, biology, chemistry, and physics aren’t inherently spiritual in the way they’re often taught. There’s rarely a spiritual dimension in the classroom. And I think that’s important: a lot of problems persist, at least in part, because God or spirituality is largely erased from these conversations. It’s rare to find someone outside church say, “You should consider spirituality for your struggles.” But so many of our issues can’t be fixed with awareness or logic alone—there’s a deeper, spiritual side.

If you look at some of the recent events—the way people are caught or find clarity is often through some act of confession, often with a religious or spiritual mentor. I’m not saying any tragedy is good, but we are missing opportunities for people to hear that faith is more than politics—it’s about the soul, about things logic and physiology can’t touch.

Interestingly, data now shows Bible reading and church attendance is actually increasing among Gen Z, especially young men. Even when no one’s telling them to, they’re figuring out that nothing else is fully filling the void—that there’s a search for purpose.

I’m all for people getting whatever help they need—therapy, medicine, spiritual guidance. Don’t give your kids (or yourself) just one path; make sure spirituality and faith are part of the menu. Add that lane, balance it all out, and don’t let politics ruin what faith and church could offer. Most Christians aren’t extremists; they’re just doing their best.

Gary, you educated me: many of these issues men face are not new—they’ve been around forever. Josh, as a parent, what’s your take? Men, women, all of us wrestle with these insecurities and challenges—what helps? I’d love your insights for some practical steps our listeners can actually take.

Josh Turner:
I think, especially in sciences, you feel the lack of spirituality—everything is about data, there’s rarely any spiritual discussion. That can be challenging because if you only look at statistics or the facts in front of you, you miss something bigger. When physics first began, people studied order in the world because they believed there was a God behind it; there was an inherent spirituality to the sciences. But over time, especially in the last 50 years, science and spirituality have become divided—almost like they’re separate camps, with politics making it worse. But I believe that’s not how it should be; you need both. If you separate them, something vital is lost.

Russ Ewell:
That’s so well said, probably much more succinct than I did earlier. Gary, it goes back to what we’ve talked about from the beginning: if we stick labels and boxes and boundaries everywhere, people can’t take advantage of the full range of resources—spiritual, scientific, emotional—that help them understand and live their lives.

Gary Ruelas:
I want to offer a compliment, Russ. What drew me to your church—my son found it first—was that the energy was different from other churches I’d visited. It was in the relationships, the camaraderie, the activities, barbecues, and how people welcomed each other. I saw a community of spirit.

Some say church attendance is declining because churches became too text- and rule-bound—so focused on the Bible and specific practices that they lost the spirituality of reverence, music, and community. People are now seeking that spiritual experience elsewhere. I think we’re in a revolution where people are hungry for deeper spirituality and consciousness. We want to go where we feel loved, where people remember us and say hi, where there’s genuine connection.

I remember attending a church for years and still always feeling like the stranger, like nobody ever remembered me. Every community is different—some sit quietly, some have dancing and music, but at the core, young people especially are looking for freedom, expression, and a place without shame.

So, how do we get there—how do we generate more of that authentic spirit and love, less shame, more celebration of God and Christ, more room for the Holy Spirit?

Russ Ewell:
Exactly. That’s the right question—how do we do that? I hope everyone listening will ask, “What can I take from this discussion and apply in my own conversations or community?” In our society, everything is becoming more rule-bound—just look at the culture wars. We’ve lost some of the fluidity and forgiveness that love brings. Love makes forgiveness and understanding possible and resists the urge to label or judge.

My convictions are very deep, but I’ve learned the power of conversation. When I was young, I thought church was for people who “couldn’t do”—couldn’t make the team, get elected, or get a date. But what I missed was that church is a community built around Jesus and the transformative power of love. What you’re both talking about is important: love is not separate from physics, psychology, or how we live.

Gary Ruelas:
Exactly. I once asked an astrophysicist if there’s an equation for love. He said, “We don’t understand that energy yet.” We can’t measure it, but we know it’s real. For me, the practice is patience, forgiveness, and letting go. The prayer I return to every day is: “Let your will be done.”

Russ Ewell:
You know, there’s a book I read years ago—after becoming a Christian, but still struggling to reconcile philosophy and science with faith. I always thought, “There has to be a way to live that leads to happiness,” but achievement alone never solved that problem for me. The book was The Father Heart of God by Floyd McClung. For the first time, I began to understand: we learn love because God loves us. The faith I practice flows from a relationship with God that motivates me toward church, scripture, and more—not a set of rules.

A lot of people think Christianity is rule-based, but it’s not. It’s relationship-based. That’s why John 3:16 says, “God so loved the world, he sent Jesus…” Christianity is about God expressing his love in a way we can grasp—even if we never fully comprehend it.

That goes to your point about AI, Gary. I sometimes compare AI to the Tower of Babel; humanity builds intelligence they think will reach God’s level, but IQ and EQ alone are not enough—we need a “spiritual quotient” (SQ) to understand what logic cannot. Ephesians 3 urges us to explore the width, length, height, and depth of God’s love. When you have that kind of love, it gives you the resilience that Josh showed when faced with that professor. Love—is a verb! John Mayer even sings that—“love is a verb.” It’s the actions you take that reveal love, not just performance.

What I’ve learned is, when you drop preconceptions and labels, you start asking, “What’s inside me that’s making me doubt God’s plan, or dissatisfied with who I am?” God wants to love you as you are—Billy Joel style, “just the way you are.” That doesn’t mean change isn’t needed, but at your core, you are lovable. When I finally experienced God’s love, I realized: I’m not unworthy, I don’t need to be ashamed, and I don’t need to be perfect.

What stood out today is that we’ve talked openly and vulnerably—a rarity in today’s society where most conversations happen via text or email. Real conversations let us listen, learn, and even change our minds. I’m grateful for that, and I hope you’ll both keep coming back because I always learn from these discussions. Josh, final word to you—then Gary, then I’ll wrap us up with a verse and we’ll look forward to next time.

Josh Turner:
Thanks, Russ. I’ve just loved this conversation. In an age of social media and sound bites, it’s rare to sit and really talk—no one wants to take the time. But sharing, discussing, and hearing from both of you has been really helpful. I’ve learned a lot, and I’m grateful.

Gary Ruelas:
I think you nailed it, Russ. It’s about accepting imperfections, being vulnerable, and reaching out when we need help—whether it’s a small struggle or something deeper. Vulnerability is where God carries us, and “let your will be done” is the practice that gets us through. Next time, I’ll share my physics story—I promise!

Russ Ewell:
Absolutely—Dathan, make a note: we need Gary’s physics story! I’ll leave everyone with Psalm 46:1—“God is our refuge and strength, always ready to help in times of trouble. So we will not fear when earthquakes come and the mountains crumble into the sea.”

Everything we’ve said today has really tried to wrestle with how we can meet our internal, spiritual, mental, and physical needs—so that we can have the confidence to, like Josh, reject the negative definitions and become who we’re meant to be. Whoever you are, wherever you are, I hope you find friends like this, have meaningful conversations, and rediscover the creativity and openness of youth. It will make you younger if you’re older, wiser if you’re younger, and together we can bring more peace and joy to the world.

This is Deep Spirituality signing off—Josh Turner and Gary Ruelas, both physics minds, and me, just here to learn and facilitate. See you next time.

Gary Ruelas:
Thanks, you guys.

Josh Turner:
Thanks for that.